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Post by rabidgecko on Jan 1, 2007 15:34:14 GMT -8
yea prone, they really do that on purpose....havent you ever watched a show like cops? or well i bet you havent.... all sorts of places have shitty quality recording devices... it wold be ridiculous to expect any more when after all, they do run constantly... and the capacity needed to store all that data would be huge.... and you cant even start to say anything about that... when you were the one saying how vista's beta releases were soo huge (like 7 GB) anyways off topic
but i dont agree with the death sentence... would have been better if they kept him in jail for life
but i do think he is dead and gone, i dont think thats a lie when they report he is no more
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Post by technohawk on Jan 1, 2007 15:46:28 GMT -8
Considering they did DNA testing when they first caught Saddam to verify that he was the real one it's certain he died. Plus US soldiers would have been there as well.
But if Iraq and the US government had wanted actual democratic justice they would have done what had been done for other Genocidal dictators like Slobodan Milosevec and tried him in the World Court for Crimes against humanity and had him sentenced to Life in prison in a non muslim European country.
And the death penalty shouldn't have anything to do with the monetary cost. It's the cost to your humanity that truly counts. And it lowers each time society lowers itself to doing what Saddam did himself by killing.
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Post by Chalupa! on Jan 1, 2007 16:14:41 GMT -8
He got what he deserved. I'm sure many of the people that Saddam had executed faced the same fear that he felt just before his death. Only difference is that Saddam deserved it.
There is a place and time for Life in prison but this was not it. This was a just sentence in my opinion.
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Post by rabidgecko on Jan 1, 2007 16:26:34 GMT -8
there is a difference between, what is deserved, and what is right
the way i see it... even though someone may happen to deserve to die, like saddam, for every time he put someone through, what he went through himself at his own end.... even though someone like that may deserve to die, it still doesnt give us the right, to kill them. Thats just how i see it though, im not about to go on a riot because saddam was killed, because he did deserve it... im just saying, if i had to put the noose around his neck, or push the button, or inject the cocktail of poisons, i wouldnt do it
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Post by Chalupa! on Jan 1, 2007 16:47:33 GMT -8
there is a difference between, what is deserved, and what is right the way i see it... even though someone may happen to deserve to die, like saddam, for every time he put someone through, what he went through himself at his own end.... even though someone like that may deserve to die, it still doesnt give us the right, to kill them. Thats just how i see it though, im not about to go on a riot because saddam was killed, because he did deserve it... im just saying, if i had to put the noose around his neck, or push the button, or inject the cocktail of poisons, i wouldnt do it But there are plenty of people that would. Maybe if you watched him kill your entire family in front of you, or watched a love one die by chemical weapon where their skin melted away, you might be willing to be that person. And as far as it being right or wrong, who is really the judge of that? What makes something "right" or "wrong"? |
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Post by rabidgecko on Jan 1, 2007 17:18:32 GMT -8
God does, and as long as i believe in God i know that i have to, for my own sake, try my best to abide by those rules, right and wrong... i know plenty of other people would, but that would be a personal matter for them...
and as for judging that... you definitely cannot be a good judge when your emotions are dominating your actions. dont get me wrong, they are justified in wanting to kill saddam. but you cant call their judgement what they would base their entire life on, if you asked them at that moment.... perhaps for me, if it was a personal issue like that, my answer would be different... but for any stranger, for something thats not personal to me, my answer would be no
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Post by mephistool on Jan 1, 2007 17:31:41 GMT -8
I think the marine that found him should've dropped a grenade into that hole, dropped a lid on it, and walked away. Would've saved millions on a trial that we all knew was going to end with the death penalty.
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Post by Prone on Jan 1, 2007 18:12:47 GMT -8
I'd say the decision was justified. You can't go around killing people for too long before it hits other people hard!
Our nation is one of the strongest, and so we made a good choice in helping stabilize Iraq, and furthermore, in bringing down a ruthless dictator. It goes to show you how much we care about other nations. However, we need help within our borders as well.
One thing about our country is dignity. When Saddam was still in our borders, and waiting further hearings, we did not keep him in a jail, because we did not want him being abused. However, I will not forget that we torchured innocent Iraqis in Guantanamo Bay.
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Post by Chalupa! on Jan 1, 2007 18:27:11 GMT -8
God does, and as long as i believe in God i know that i have to, for my own sake, try my best to abide by those rules, right and wrong... i know plenty of other people would, but that would be a personal matter for them... and as for judging that... you definitely cannot be a good judge when your emotions are dominating your actions. dont get me wrong, they are justified in wanting to kill saddam. but you cant call their judgement what they would base their entire life on, if you asked them at that moment.... perhaps for me, if it was a personal issue like that, my answer would be different... but for any stranger, for something thats not personal to me, my answer would be no So if you believe in the Bible, then you know that God allows man to make laws and abide by them. Since the law allows for the Death Penalty then it's not wrong. So I guess my answer to what you said earlier about what is Just is not always right, is that this would be "right". I actually follow the same guidelines as you do, but you just understood them differently. I'm curious what part of the Bible made you think that the death penalty is wrong? |
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Post by rabidgecko on Jan 1, 2007 18:45:53 GMT -8
i know man can make his own laws and abide by them, but the laws they make are not always 'right' whether that be by what society sees them as later, or how we base them against the principles we follow by believing in God. and America may hold the death penalty as law, in certain states, but many countries around the world have long since abolished it
the funny thing is, the catholic church, actually doesnt say the death penalty is wrong... it says in the catechism or w.e, that if it is the absolute only way to safeguard society, it is not a sin. which is fine, all you guys who want the death penalty, go ahead and have it, but i wouldnt want that, a death, on my conscience, even if the person deserved it.
uhh i dunno the bible that well, so i cant quote it for you, i dunno, just the part about God made life, gave us life, it should not be in our rights or our decision on who gets to live and who doesnt. i dont even know if thats part of the bible but w.e thats what i think
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Post by technohawk on Jan 1, 2007 21:56:08 GMT -8
I'm curious what part of the Bible made you think that the death penalty is wrong? Um, Thou Shalt Not Kill comes to mind. Prone please read a newspaper or watch a newscast before posting so you at least get some(even one) facts correct. |
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Post by rabidgecko on Jan 1, 2007 22:22:32 GMT -8
umm wel his point on ruthless dictator is correct, so hes right on that one...  |
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Post by Chalupa! on Jan 1, 2007 23:08:01 GMT -8
I'm curious what part of the Bible made you think that the death penalty is wrong? Um, Thou Shalt Not Kill comes to mind. I knew someone would go down this road, but I wasn't sure who. Clearly the Bible is talking about Murder and in fact the hebrew word "ratsach" is used and is tranlated to mean to "kill" or "murder". Not only is the Bible not talking about capital punishment, the Bible specifically authorizes it. Take Romans 13, 1-5: Genesis 9:6 Other parts of the Bible that talk about not being allowed to kill seems (I'm certainly not an expert) to be talking about man killing man and not the Governments right to Capital Punishment. I'm not going to start a whole new debate here but I find it interesting that many people that are against Capital Punishment are also Pro-Choice. Go figure. |
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Post by technohawk on Jan 2, 2007 4:28:10 GMT -8
Well Thou Shalt not Kill was the only thing to pop to my head without having to do any research. And thus I fell into the trap. But I won't wiggle out of it by attempting to discredit the Bible nor those who wrote it.
I did find some biblical passages that show how extreme the bible was in support of the death penalty since it allowed people to be killed for:
murder (Exodus 21:12)
kidnapping (Exodus 21:16)
bestiality (Exodus 22:19)
adultery (Leviticus 20:10)
homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13)
being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5)
prostitution (Leviticus 21:9)
rape (Deuteronomy 22:24-25)
Since most of those crime's punishments have been reduced to either prison or are no longer illegal at all(homosexuality, adultery, false prophet) then it seems governments do not have to follow Biblical law.
Thus they could abolish the death penalty without any Heavenly repercussions.
This will be the extent of my Biblical argument.
I will also concede that the writing in the Bible that states that God allows humanity to govern itself is correct. Otherwise we would have God directly interfering in the Justice systems of all nations.
However, just because something is made a law does not mean that it is in anyway "Just." And yes there is the whole debate about what exactly "just" and "right" are.
Obviously we can't use the bible to determine justice since killing someone for being gay would be considered Unjust today.
We can't necessarily use the current laws of places like the USA since there have been unjust laws that allowed slavery to occur.
So what's left then? Emotions, rational thinking, sense of decency and forgiveness and maybe some other things I can't think of right now.
What I seem to be left with at the core of my beliefs is that killing someone via the government is really just an acknowledgment of that government's failure. Or even society's failure.
It means we have given up on those people and furthermore given up on society itself.
Instead of attempting to correct the failure by turning that criminal into a being that at minimum starts contributing to society in a positive way(e.g. hard labour) or full rehabilitation, they are killed and forgotten about.
Society's mistakes are thrown out without ever being used or studied to find out exactly why the mistake happened in the first place.
In that sense society became pregnant with a child and then decided they no longer wanted that child and aborted them. So the death penalty can be seen as being very similar to an abortion. (yea maybe it's a cheesy cliche'd metaphor)
I am pro-life in all it's facets(ie I'm against abortion, euthanasia, and the death penalty).
And I find it ironic that so many people abhor abortion but hail the death penalty. ie they are both pro life and pro death at the same time. Go figure.
And mostly unrelated, just for Prone(ie no need to comment further on this upcoming section)
Here are some facts that are contradictory to pretty much everything you stated.
1) The USA did NOT stabilize Iraq in any way, shape or form. The fact that most people consider the USA is losing the war is evidence of that.
2) Saddam was NOT in the USA borders. He was in Iraq. AND HE WAS IN A JAIL! And he was not going to be abused because he was going to be on TV a whole lot and previous scandals had already put US Forces in charge of prisons in an extremely poor light.
3) It's TORTURED! Not torchured! (yes being a spelling nazi on that one, but it was just so way off target)
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