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Post by rbobatar on Sept 25, 2006 18:35:47 GMT -8
CONSERVATIVES AND REPUBLICANS IN GENERAL ARE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING, IN FACT AMERICA IN GENEERAL TRULY IS THE GREAT SATAN. HOWEVER RBOB DOES NOT HAVE THE TIME TO WRITE A COMPREHENSIVE REFUTATION OF THEIR ENTIRE PLATFORM BUT AS FOR THE TORTURE MATTER RBOB THINKS IT IS RIDICULOUSLY STUPID THAT ANYBODY COULD EVEN CONCEIVE OF IT BEING JUSTIFIED. RBOB WILL KEEP IT SHORT BECAUSE IT IS SO OBVIOUS AND HARDLY ANY RATIONAL AND MORAL PERSON WOULD DARE DISAGREE WITH RBOB. FOR STARTERS THE FACT THAT AMERICA AND THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION IS DEFENDING THE TORTURE TECHNIQUES USED IN GUANTANAMO BAY, IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN AS WELL AS THE RENDITION OF SUSPECTS TO OTHER COUNTRIES IS A COLOSSAL SHAME TO AMERICA. FIRSTLY IT IS A VIOLATION OF INTERNATINOAL LAW WHICH AMERICA CANNOT PRETEND TO BE IDEALIST IN ANY WAY WHEN IT PICKS AND CHOOSES ITS LAWS TO FOLLOW AND IS A SLAP AT THE IDEOLOGY THE COUNTRY TENDS TO UPHOLD. ALSO TORTURE SIMPLY DOESNT WORK AND THE PEOPLE WHO DO KNOW SHIT ARENT GOING TO TALK IF THEY HAVE DECIDED NOT TO, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TORTURE THEM, LET ALONE THE THOUSANDS OF GRUNTS AMERICA HAS IN GUANTAMAMO THAT DONT KNOW SHIT AND WERE SIMPLY KIDNAPPED FROM THEIR HOMES AND SOLD TO THE AMERICANS BY THE NORTHERN ALLIANCE IN AFGHANISTAN FOR BOUNTIES. THE ONES THAT DO TALK JUST SAY SHIT TO MAKE IT STOP AND THE INFORMATION ACQUIRED THROUGH TORTURE IS INCREDIBLY UNRELIABLE, THIS CAN EXPLAIN THE DOZENS OF TERROR ALERTS SINCE 9/11 WHICH HAVE NOT MATERIALIZED, THREATS ON BUILDINGS AND SHIT. FOR INSTANCE THE ONLY ACTUAL STUDY DONE ON TORTURE TO SEE IF IT WORKS DONE BY THE CENTRE FOR THE VICTIMS OF TORTURE STATES "NEARLY EVERY CLIENT AT THE CENTER FOR VICTIMS OF TORTURE WHEN SUBJECTED TO TORTURE, CONFESSED TO A CRIME THEY DID NOT COMMIT, GAVE UP EXTRANEOUS INFORMATION, OR SUPPLIED NAMES OF INNOCENT FRIENDS OR COLLEAGUES TO THEIR TORTURES". IF A SUICIDE BOMBER IS WILLING TO DIE FOR HIS CAUSE WHY WOULD TORTURE MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE IN WHETHER THEY TALK OR NOT IF THEY ARE ALREADY RESIGNED TO DIE. NOW ALL TORTURE HAS ACCOMPLISHED IS TO MAKE AMERICA MUCH MORE HATED WORLDWIDE AND HELPED, AMONG THE MANY OTHER AMERICAN POLICIES, TO RAISE THE RISK OF A NEW TERRORIST ATTACK. AMERICA TRULY IS THE GREAT SATAN.
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Post by technohawk on Sept 25, 2006 19:12:05 GMT -8
Nothing like contradiction. Oh Noes. Mortal, posting on topic. Since your mind is too full of dogma to allow for rational thinking I shall once again school you. Firstly I will admit that the paragraph you refer to is a tad contradictory in its wording. I shall elaborate. My point is that my "emotional" response would be to interrogate and possibly torture someone. HOWEVER, the person could have zero info and all i would be doing is inflicting pain to alleviate my stress while getting nowhere closer to finding/helping my loved one. Final point on this post. For the most part I have the decency to go through someone's post and answer all the questions or queries stated. If someone makes a good point(chal has, mortal you haven't and likely never will) I admit it. What's that word called, oh, being humble. I at least attempt humility when I'm wrong(and when I'm right I can be a prick so yea its a double standard) If in a post you have mentioned ONLY a simple seemingly contradictory statement, then you have failed in your post. From now on when you do such I shall assume that you agree with all else that was said. Plus you also never answered my hypothetical about your loved one being illegally detained(REREAD post) In fact you really haven't stated anything other than you "think" I'm wrong about everything. You do actually have thoughts in that coconut of yours right? You're not just a religi-bot spewing out silliness are you? Edit: Just noticed Rbob's post on topic and will do him the decency of responding to it(ie I'll practice what I preach) I'd say he makes a better case against torture than I did, even amidst the caps. I recall a recent interview on Larry King Live that had Bill Maher. I don't get Bill Maher's show out here in Canadaland so I watched it to listen to his opinions. (yes conservatives, disregard the logic of what's being typed because it comes from a "liberal") Side Note: I don't mindlessly believe and/or agree with the opinions of liberal figureheads. I listen to what they say and think about it for a while before coming to my own conclusion that may or may not agree with that person. Anyways, Maher made 2 points that are relevant to the torture issue. 1st He talks about the history of the USA and how the US has for the most part been seen as a good country by the majority of the world because they DIDN'T resort to the terrible things that the "bad" countries did. Severe torture was never mentioned as a reason of why WWI and WWII were won. It was bravery and courage of all the allied countries that defeated the axis. If your country has had success in the past while at the same time keeping their moral dignity, shouldn't you try to stay in the same frame of mind as before? 2nd he talked about one of the few good points John Kerry made. Which was that you catch criminals through standard "police work." Just like the guys on Law and Order, you track down leads, interview not only suspects but loved ones and known contacts. Those lead to new leads and potentially new evidence. Through that "footwork" you will catch those criminals and prosecute them. In my opinion the police work sounds like a much better solution to finding people like Bin Laden than torturing. Another Side note: The US government had a great chance to do police work and interview numerous members of the Bin Laden family who were in the US at the time and use that info to catch Osama real fast. Instead they let them all go back to Saudi Arabia without question. I await a good intelligent response from Chal(as always) and a grammar mistake or contradiction from mortal. And Rbob can bring the caps back to the discussion if he deems us worthy enough to talk with.
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Post by Chalupa! on Sept 25, 2006 21:16:33 GMT -8
Well now it's getting a little hard, since I have to respond to two Techno Posts and one Rbob, but i'll do my best not to miss anything.
First, I want to say that I respect Techno for answering the question honestly. Most people i've debated with will lie if given a Hypo that seems to prove the other persons point. Techno responded honestly, but then turned the hypo around to even out the contradiction with a point of his own. Obviously, he got me since I would have to answer his question honestly about my innocent family member being tortured. We end up with a stalemate on this one. We both have different opinions and each of us justified our position. I would of had more fun if Techno would have just lied, but he didn't fall for the trap so kudos to Techno for that.
One thing I would like to point out though is that the article states Bush is not trying to authorize torture but merely wants the current law to be spelled out since it is currently so vague. I still see nothing wrong with asking for clarification so no one gets in trouble.
Rbob's post was intelligent and well put together (besides the caps). I would argue that although Rbob is correct about people admitting to crimes they did not commit when tortured but that when used to get information from KNOWN terrorists there are cases where it does work. That being said, Bush is not asking for authorization to torture. It's just my own opinion that there are certain times that I would agree with it being used. (Like on Rbob when he uses all caps for example)
Where Rbob fails in his post is that he can't explain why we have had no attack on US soil since 9/11 2001. We know the terrorist's have tried...many have been arrested trying. We have never in recent history gone this long without an attack. Bottom line, you can hate Bush all you want, and I can't change that. YOU can't change the fact that what he has done has worked. He has saved innocent American lives and i'm all for that. May it sound harsh, but I don't care who doesn't agree with the cost. I know many Liberals think it's worth having innocent people DIE so that they can have more privacy. Again, I could give a damn what the Liberals want. Fortunately, voters said Terrorism was very important to them and that was the reason they voted for Bush. Like it or hate it, the voters were right.
Now, to answer Techno's question about Corporate and Hospitals being protected against lawsuits, i'm against the frivolous lawsuits and I think that people / lawyers that file them should pay up the butt for wasting so much time and costing business so much money. However, I think that Hospitals and Corporations should pay when they screw up and this is one area that i'm not 100% with the Republican party. I don't agree with everything 100%. I'm closer to the Republican opinion though because Demo's think there should be no penalty for filing a frivolous lawsuit because it might stop people from filing. I say, you lose....you lose and pay back all the costs.
As far as Kerry talking about Police work in catching criminals, I believe that we need to stop making it so hard for the Police to catch these criminals. This is a whole new debate though.
The Patriot Act BTW is one of the best tools for fighting Terrorism. And the Demo's are once again, against anything that helps us to catch and stop terrorism and the republicans are for it. Once again, I just can't see the logic in being against this act. Leave it to the stupid Liberals. I guess i'm glad they are against it....helped keep Bush in office!
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Post by rbobatar on Sept 26, 2006 0:43:29 GMT -8
THAT IS A RIDICULOUS POINT, SEPTEMBER 11 COULD HAVE EASILY BEEN AVERTED AT MANY POINTS AT ANY TIME FOR OVER A DECADE PRECEEDING IT WITHOUT THE USE OF TORTURE. TO DENY THIS IS SIMPLY IGNORANT. CANADA THWARTED AN ATTEMPTED TERROR PLOT IN TORONTO AND HAD THOROUGHLY INFILTRATED THE CELL FROM ITS INCEPTION THROUGH EVERY STAGE OF THE PLOT'S DEVELOPMENT UNTIL THEY ATTEMPTED TO BUY BOMB MAKING MATERIALS. THIS WAS ALL DONE LEGALLY WITHOUT EVEN REQUIRING TO BREAK PRE-9/11 LAWS IN CANADA. NOW AS TO WHY THIS WORKED ONE FINDS IN CANADA HUGE COLLABORATION WITHIN THE MUSLIM POPULATION TOWARDS THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT SINCE THEY ARE NOT HOUNDED AND VILLIFIED BY THE CANADIAN MEDIA AND AUTHORITIES.
1. THIS EXAMPLE SERVES TO CONTRAST THE CANADIAN SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT WITH THAT IN THE US. THERE THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY IS CONSTANTLY HOUNDED AND ATTACKED BY REPUBLICAN AND RIGHT WING MEDIA PUNDITS AND GOVERNMENT RACIAL PROFILING AND THE ENTIRE COUNTRY SEEMED TO H AVE BEEN SWEPT BY AN AIRE OF ANTI-MUSLIM, OR AT LEAST ANTI-ARAB/MIDDLE-EASTERN LOOKING SENTIMENT. THIS HAS SERVED TO ALIENATE THE MUSLIM POPULATION WITHIN THE COUNTRY FROM THE REST OF THE POPULACE AND THIS ATMOSPHERE LEADS TO HOME-GROWN TERROR CELLS WHICH CAN LEAP UP ANYWHERE IN THE COUNTRY JUST AS THEY ALLEGEDLY HAVE BEEN SUCH AS IN BUFFALO AND FLORIDA, WITH LITTLE OR NO CONTACT WITH AL QAEDA AS A WHOLE AND CERTAINLY THE KNOWLEDGE OF WHICH WOULD BE LARGELY OBSOLETE BY THIS TIME SINCE THOSE IN GUANTANAMO HAVE BEEN LANGUISHING IN PRISON FOR 5 YEARS. SO CANADA DOES NOT EXPERIENCE THIS PROBLEM OF BEING ISOLATED FROM THE INSIDE OF THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY AND IT IS LESS LIKELY THAT A HOME-GROWN TERROR CELL WOULD POP UP AND EXTREMELY SURPRISING THAT ONE DID BUT IT WAS PENETRATED AND DISRUPTED IN A TIMELY FASHION WITH COOPERATION FROM THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY AND WITHOUT THE USE OF TORTURE AND HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE. TO INFER THAT ANYTHING AT ALL AHS BEEN GAINED FROM TORTURE AND RENDITION OF SUSPECTS TO OTHER COUNTRIES IS ABSOLUTELY PREPOSTEROUS.
2. TO ATTRIBUTE THE LACK OF TERROR ATTACKS IN THE UNITED STATES IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS AS A RESULT OF THE USE OF TORTURE (AND ANY OTHER OF BUSH'S POLICIES) IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. THE ENTIRE WORLD COULD SEE HOW PREPARED AMERICA WAS FOR ANOTHER SUCH DISASTER IN THE BUNGLED RESPONSE TO HURRICANE KATRINA. THE ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE NOTHING BUT WHAT DOES THAT MATTER? WHAT IS THE WORST CASE SCENARIO FOR A TERROR ATTACK? SETTING OFF A DIRTY BOMB IN AN AMERICAN CITY(AN EXTREMELY UNLIKELY SITUATION)? OR CRASHING MORE PLANES? HOW MANY AMERICAN SOLDIERS HAVE DIED IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN? IS THIS NOT MORE THAN THOSE THAT DIED IN SEPTEMBER 11? HOW MUCH MONEY HAS BEEN SPENT FIGHTING THESE WARS? THE THREAT OF TERROR HAS BEEN EXAGGERATED TO THE POINT OF PARANOID INSANITY BY THE AUTHORITIES AND HAS BEEN USED AS A COVER FOR SECURING POWER AND MONEY FOR THOSE IN POWER. AS GEORGE BUSH SAID : "IF THIS WAS A DICTATORSHIP, IT WOULD BE A HECK OF A LOT EASIER, JUST SO LONG AS IM THE DICTATOR". AS FOR GEORGE BUSH'S END IN THINGS JUST LOOK AT HOW MANY OF THE 9/11 COMMISSIONS RECCOMMENDATIONS HAVE BEEN MET SATISFACTORILY. WHERE IS OSAMA? THEY DONT CARE ABOUT CATCHING TERRORISTS, JUST MAKING YOU AFRAID OF THEM, IT IS SO OBVIOUS TO ANYONE AND RBOB MEANS ANYONE OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES. AND TORTURE DOES NOT HELP
3. AS FOR THE TERRORISTS THERE NEVER WAS ANY CONCERTED TERROR THREAT. AL QAEDA NEVER WAS POWERFUL IT WAS JUST 19 MEN ON A PLANE WITH BOXCUTTERS. RBOB AND 18 STONED ANARCHIST FRIENDS COULD HAVE PUT TOGETHER AS INGENIUS A PLAN IN MUCH LESS TIME THAN THE DECADE REQUIRED FOR IT TO BE PLANNED. THERE WERE NO MORE TERROR ATTACKS PLANNED THIS WAS SIMPLY A FLUKE AND A GODSEND TO GEORGE BUSH. IT WAS A ONE IN A MILLION CHANCE THEY WOULD GET THROUGH AND IT HAPPENED TO WORK AND 3000 PEOPLE DIED, THIS IS NOT A PIVOTAL TURNING POINT IN HISTORY, IT IS 3000 PEOPLE DYING. IT IS FUNNY TO SEE HOW MUCH COVERAGE 3000 (OR 3 MILLION FOR THAT MATTER) AFRICANS DYING IN WAR IN THE CONGO RECEIVES IN THE US MEDIA, OR 100,000 IRAQI CIVILIANS AS A RESULT OF IRAQI LIBERATION (AND TO SAY THAT THEY ARE BETTER OFF THAN UNDER SADDAM HUSSEIN IS ANOTHER VIEWPOINT WHICH APPEARS NEAR THE FRINGE OF INSANITY AFTER THE RELEASE OF DECLASSIFIED PENTAGON REPORT AFTER DECLASSIFIED PENTAGON REPORT). TORTURING THOSE CAUGHT IN AFGHANISTAN AND HOLDING THEM WITHOUT TRIAL IS NOT YIELDING ANY USEFUL INFORMATION FOR THE US. TORTURING THEM IS NOT YIELDING ANY USEFUL INFORMATIION AND SINCE YOU DIDNT SEEM TO REALIZE THIS LAST TIME RBOB WILL REFER TO MORE POINTS:
GENERAL DAVID IRVINE, A SPECIALIST ON INTERROGATIONS SSAID "NO ONE HAS YET OFFERED ANY VALIDATED EVIDENCE THAT TORTURE PRODUCES RELIABLE INTELLIGENCE" AND "WHILE TORTURE APOLOGISTS FREQUENTLY MAKE THE CLAIM THAT TORTURE SAVES LIVES, THE ASSERTION IS DIRECTLY CONTRDICTED BY MANY ARMY, FBI, AND CIA PROFESSIONALS WHO HAVE ACTUALLY INTERROGATED AL QAEDA CAPTIVE."
4. IN THE WORDS OFMIT PROFESSOR JOHN TIRMAN WRITES "THE BIG WHAT IF IN THE DEBATE IS WHAT IF A CAPTURED TERRORIST KNEW OF A PLAN TO DETONATE A NUCLEAR WEAPON IN MANHATTAN SHOULD WE USE ALL MEANS TO STOP THAT? SUCH WHAT IFS DEPEND ON MANY IMPLAUSIBLE SCENARIOS CONVERGING. THE SIMPLE FACT IS THAT SUICIDE BOMBING HAS SHOWN THAT HTE MOST POLITICALLY VIOLENT PEOPLE WILL DIE FOR THEIR CAUSE; THIS IS NOT EXACTLY NEWS. SO IF IN THE UNLIKELY CASE SOMEONE DID KNOW OF SUCH A THING ABOUT TO HAPPEN AND WE ARE PULLING OUT THEIR FINGERNAILS, WE CAN REST ASSURED THEY WONT TALK, BECAUSE THEY WOULD HAS COMMITETED TO DYING ANYWAY. PEOPLE WHO ARGUE OTHERWISE ARE NOT ONLY MORALLY CORRUPT BUT NAIVE. "
5. WE COULD HOWEVER POSE A MUCH MORE LIKELY WHATIF: WHAT IF A WOULD-BE TERRORIST BECOMES A TERRORIST BECAUSE AMERICA IS TORTURING HIS COMPATRIOTS? THAT WHAT IF IS ALREADY UNDER WAY. SOME PEOPLE -- AMERICAN TORTURERS -- HAVE BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS AS A RESULT, THINK WHAT ABU GHRAIB (FORGETTING THE DOZENS OF OTHER OUTRAGES OR 98 LOGGED TORTURE COMPLAINTS IN AMERICAN PRISONS IN THE REGION SINCE THEN) HAS DONE TO BOOST THE INSURGENCY IN IRAQ, WHICH IS UNSTOPPABLE AT THIS POINT THANKS TO THE BUNGLING OF GEORGE BUSH AND HIS CRONIES. ANY STUDENT OF MILITARY HISTORY CAN PLAINLY SEE THAT AMERICA HAS EFFECTIVELY LOST, BUT THATS ANOTHER DEBATE.
6. THE FACT THAT THE UNITED STATES COMMITS THESE CRIMES SHOWS THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS NO QUALMS WITH RELINQUISHING ALL MORAL SUPERIORITY OVER THE TERRORISTS AND AS SUCH CANNOT BE TRUSTED FROM THAT STANDPOINT IN ANY WAY AND THE REST OF THE WORLD HAS JUST AS MUCH REASON TO DOUBT THE AUTHORITY THE AMERICANS HAVE ON HUMAN RIGHTS AS IRAN OR NORTH KOREA. AMERICA CAN NO LONGER CLAIM TO BE MORALLY SUPERIOR IN ANY WAY TO ANYONE ELSE SINCE THEY HAVE SHIRKED INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THEIR LOSS OF STANDING IN THE WORLD BECAUSE OF THIS, AND A FEW HUNDRED OTHER POLICIES OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, IS ABSOLTUELY CATASTROPHIC FOR AMERICAN PRESTIGE, WHICH, THE AMERICAN EMPIRE HAS RELIED VERY HEAVILY UPON TO RETAIN HEGEMONY OVER THE WORLD FOR THE LAST HALF CENTURY. THE RESULT OF THIS ADMINISTRATIONS ACTIONS HAVE LEFT AMERICA A HOLLOW FRAGMENT OF ITS FORMER SELF AND ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE AS A SUPERPOWER AND COMPLETE AND TOTAL ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL COLLAPSE IN THE NEAER FUTURE AS A RESULT OF THIS ADMINSTRATIONS POLICIES ON OIL, ENERGY AND GLOBAL WARMING WHICH ARE THE REAL PROBLEMS THAT THEY SHOULD BE FACING. THE CHANCES OF DYING IN A TERRORIST ATTACK ARE SMALLER THAN DYING AS A RESULT OF FALLING IN YOUR OWN BATHTUB AND YET THE ISSUE IS RATED MANY TIMES HIGHER BY AMERICAN VOTERS THAN THE DESTRUCTION OF GLOBAL ECOSYSTEMS, GLOBAL WARMING OR THE LOOMING ENERGY, POPULATION, WATER (AMONG OTHER) CRISES.
THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS RUN THE AMERICAN SUPERPOWER INTO THE GROUND AND DEFENDING THEIR POLICIES, ESPECIALLY TORTURE, THEIR MOST OBVIOUSLY HEINOUS CRIME, IS MORALLY REPUGNANT AND IRRATIONAL AND SIMPLY DESTROYING AMERICA'S CREDIBILITY AND HUGELY INCREASING THE LIKELIHOOD OF ANOTHER TERROR ATTACK.
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Post by Chalupa! on Sept 26, 2006 7:54:40 GMT -8
I think Rbob and I are talking two different points, because i'm not claiming that torture has stopped terrorist attacks. I'm talking about the Patriot Act, The war in Afghan that has kept the terrorists too busy to plan, and all the other methods being used by the Bush administration.
But since Rbob says torture has never worked, let me respond to that:
*the French were successfull using toture in the Battle of Algiers *McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked
Once again, Bush isn't the one authorizing torture. I was arguing that it can work in some cases, and that it doesn't bother me (in SOME cases) We also may need to define what "torture" is, since I would not agree with burning someones hand or beating them to a pulp. I'm talking about psycological torture as some might call it.
And to Rbob's point about us pissing off the terrorists...I could give a damn. They don't need a reason to be pissed, but if we do piss them off, good for them. The Liberals were the ones on TV when we were going to attack Iraq claiming that we would have 100's of terrorists rise up and attack us if we attacked Iraq. I'm still sitting here waiting. Looks like Chicken Little was wrong. Either that, or Bush is so good at stopping terror that all these pissed off Terrorists can't do a damn thing. Who was using scare tactics then? You can't change the hard cold facts. Liberals were wrong.
LOL - Sorry, not much else I can say. You can't really be serious? Give us a date of when this "near future" will happen, so I can laugh again when the date comes and passes.
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Post by rbobatar on Sept 26, 2006 10:16:28 GMT -8
WELL RBOB IS GLAD YOU ARE NOT SAYING THAT TORTURE HAS STOPPED ANY TERROR ATTACKS ALTHOUGH THAT APPEARED TO BE THE IMPLICATION BUT SINCE YOU ARE SAYING THAT RBOB IS CONFUSED WHY ANY SANE RATIONAL INDIVIDUAL WOULD STILL SUPPORT THE PRACTICE WHICH HAS HURT AMERICA IN SO MANY WAYS AND CONFERRED 0 BENEFITS AS YOU ADMIT. WHY DO YOU STILL SUPPORT TORTURE, AND IT IS TORTURE DESPITE THE BUSH ADMINISTRATIONS BEST EFFORTS TO REDEFINE IT INTO NONEXISTENCE?
AS FOR THE PATRIOT ACT, THE EROSION OF HUMAN RIGHTS SEEMS TO BE NOT A CONCERN TO YOU... YOU IGNORED RBOBS COUNTEREXAMPLE OF THE CANADIAN TERROR CELL WHICH WAS INFILTRATED WITHIN DAYS OF ITS INCEPTION WITHOUT THE USE OF INVASIVE LAWS THAT ATTACK HUMAN RIGHTS, BASIC TO ALL AMERICANS AND MOST CIVILIZED COUNTRIES SINCE THE ANCIEN REGIME. THE MENTALITY IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE WHAT IS THERE TO BE AFRAID OF IS SO INCREDIBLY REMINISCENT OF A SPEECH GIVEN IN THE 1930S BY JOSEPH GOEBBELS TO ALLOW THE GESTAPO EXPANDED POWERS TO SEARCH HOMES AND IMPRISON ARBITRARILY IF THEY WERE DEEMED AN ENEMY OF THE STATE. IS THIS YOUR MENTALITY?
AS FOR THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN, CANADA COMPLETELY SAW THE MERITS IN IT AND HAS SENT A LARGE CONTINGENT AND SUFFERED THE DEATHS OF 32 SOLDIERS IN THE REGION (A CANADIAN SOLDIER IN AFGHANISTAN BEING SIX TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE IN THE LINE OF DUTY THAN AN AMERICAN SOLDIER IN IRAQ) BUT BECAUSE OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S NEGELECTION OF THAT WAR (TROOP LEVELS IN IRAQ COMPARED TO AFGHANISTAN ARE AT A RATIO OF 14:1), THE 10,000 AMERICANS AND OTHER ISAF FORCES ARE NOW BEING PUSHED OUT OF SOUTHERN AFGHANISTAN AND THE TALIBAN IS ON THE RESURGENT. AL QAEADA, THOUGH ALWAYS A SHADOW ORGANIZATION AND NEVER EVEN A FRACTION AS POWERFUL AS THE AUTHORITIES WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE IS RECOVERING AND IS NOT BEING HARRIED IN ANY OFFNEISVE PLANS THEY ARE MAKING. WHY DIDNT GEORGE BUSH PRIORITIZE AFGHANISTAN AND TRY AND CATCH OSAMA, THE ACTUAL TERRORIST YOU ARE SO AFRAID OF?
RBOB IS GLAD YOU BROUGHT UP THIS POINT ABOUT TORTURE IN ALGERIA SINCE, FIRSTLY, THERE IS MASSIVE EVIDENCE THAT THE FRENCH USE OF TORTURE THAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE OBTAINED THEM INFORMATION BEFORE THE BATTLE AND THEIR CONDUCT IN SUCH MATTERS THROUGHOUT THE WAR ADDED FUEL TO THE POWER OF THE INSURGENCY AND GAVE IT A HUGE BOOST IN PUBLIC SUPPORT WHICH THEY WOULD OTHERWISE NOT HAVE HAD, A GIANT PROPAGANDA BOOST THAT ALSO HURT FANCE'S STANDING WORLDWIDE, ESPECIALLY IN THE EYES OF AMERICA IRONICALLY. SECONDLY FRANCE LOST THE WAR AFTER A LONG AND COSTLY INSURGENCY. AND THIS DOES NOT SOMEHOW DISPROVE THE STUDIES MENTIONED IN RECENT POSTS BY ACTUAL INTERROGATORS OF AL QAEDA SUSPECTS. DO YOU THINK THIS JUSTIFIES TORTURE?
ALSO THE FACT THAT TORTURE WORKED ON JOHN MCCAIN SAYS MORE ABOUT JOHN MCCAIN THAN TORTURE ITSELF.
ONCE AGAIN BUSH IS THE ONE AUTHORIZING TORTURE, SOMEBODY HAS TO SIGN THOSE BILLS AND IF GEORGE BUSH CANNOT HOLD ALL THE BLAME DONALD RUMSFELD CERTAINLY CAN AND TO DO SO IS SOMEWHAT LIKE SAYING HITLER WAS NOT TO BLAME FOR THE HOLOCAUST SINCE HE DID NOT ORDER IT, IT WAS ALL HIMMLER'S IDEA (THIS IS TRUE HITLER NEVER EVEN PUT HIS NAME ON ANY PAPER PERTAINING TO THE FINAL SOLUTION) DO YOU THINK GEORGE BUSH SHOULD BE ABSOLVED OF BLAME IN THE SAME FASHION?
AND RBOB WAS AWESTRUCK BY THE APPARENT NAIVETY OF YOUR STATEMENT THAT THE TERRORISTS DONT NEED A REASON TO BE PISSED. WHY THE f**k DO YOU THINK THEY HATE AMERICA? IT IS CERTAINLY NOT JEALOUSY. IT IS CERTAINLY NOT THEY HAVE HEARTS OF PURE EVIL. AS ATTICUS FINCH ONCE SAID YOU DO NOT KNOW A MAN UNTIL YOU WALK A MILE IN HIS SHOES AND OBVIOUSLY YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THEIR SITUATION IS EXTREMELY POOR. THESE MEN AND WOMEN ARE NOT MOTIVATED TO KILL THEMSELVES TO HAVE THE GLORY OF KILLING AMERICAN CIVILIANS JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE JEALOUS OF AMERICAN POWER. AMERICAN OUTRAGES IN THE REGIONS ARE NUMBERLESS. RBOB DOESNT HAVE THE TIME TO RENUMERATE THEM NOW BUT IF YOU ARE INTERESTED HE CAN GET INTO THAT LATER. TERRORISTS DONT SIMPLY WAKE UP ONE DAY AND DECIDE THEY HATE AMERICA AND THEY WILL BLOW THEMSELVES UP IN THE NAME OF ISLAM WHICH AMERICA OSTENSIBLY DOES NOT HATE. RBOB WILL SIMPLY ASK THE QUESTION WHY DO YOU THINK THEY HATE AMERICA?
AND THE LIBERALS WERE IN FACT THE ONES ON TV CLAIMING THAT AMERICA WOULD HAVE NOT HUNDREDS BUT THOUSANDS OF TERRORISTS RISE UP AND ATTACK, RBOB DOES NOT DISAGREE WITH YOU AT ALL ON THIS. RBOB WONDERS WHAT YUO CALL THE INSURGENCY. TERRORISTS WHO WOULD HAVE NEVER MADE IT OVER TO THE US BUT NOW THEY CAN KILL AMERICAN SOLDIERS RIGHT AT HOME IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN. RBOB WONDERS WHERE THE LIBERALS WERE WRONG SINCE THE TIME TAKEN TO PLAN SEPTEMBER 11 WAS TEN YEARS, AND IT HAS ONLY BEEN THREE SINCE THE INVASION YOU ARE BEING A BIT PREMATURE IN CITING NO ATTACKS ON THE US AS THE SUCCESS OF US FOREIGN POLICY BUT WONDERS HOW YOU WOULD SPIN IT IF THERE WAS ANOTHER ATTACK. PROBABLY DEMOCRATS OPPOSING PATRIOT ACT 2 RBOB PRESUMES. GEORGE BUSH IS DAMNED LUCKY THERE HAVE BEEN NO MORE TERROR ATTACKS SINCE HIS COLOSSAL INCOMPETENCE WAS SHOWN FOR EVERYONE TO SEE FOLLOWING THE KATRINA DISASTER, A THREAT OF THE SAME NATURE (BASICALLY) AND MUCH MORE FORESEEABLE THAN ANY TERROR ATTACK. HOWEVER AS FOR IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN RBOB WONDERS WHAT THE LIVES OF HOW MANY AMERICAN SOLDIERS ARE WORTH TO YOU? HOW MANY IRAQI CIVILIANS MUST DIE TO STOP ANOTHER TERROR ATTACK ON US SOIL (100,000 IS NOT AN INACCURATE ESTIMATE AND THAT WAS A YEAR AGO WE CAN DEBATE THAT TOO)? HOW MANY TRILLIONS (YES TRILLIONS) SPENT ON FIGHTING TERROR ARE WORTH THE LIVES LOST IN A WORST CASE TERROR SCENARIO (3,000 DYING ON SEPTEMBER 11 NEVER LIKELY TO BE SURPASSED)? RBOB WOULD LIKE AN ANSWER.
AS FOR RBOBS OTHER POINT ON THE DESTRUCTION OF THE EARTH AS A HABITABLE PLACE, RBOB HAS TO GO TO CLASS BUT HE JUST WOULD LIKE TO POSE THE QUETSION WHAT WOULD IT TAKE FOR YOU TO CALL WHAT THE EARTH IS GOING THROUGH THE APOCALYPSE? THE DEATH OF THE SALMON? GLOBAL WARMING? THE OZONE HOLE? THE REDUCTION OF KRILL PROPULATIONS OFF ANTARCTICA BY 90%? THE TURNING OF THE SEA OFF SAN DIEGO AND THE GULF OF MEXICO INTO A DEAD ZONE? THE EXTINCTION OF TWO HUNDRED SPECIES PER DAY? FOUR HUNDRED? SIX HUNDRED? THE BREATHTAKING DECLINE OF EVERY SINGLE LIFE AND LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEM ON EARTH IN LES THAN A CENTURY? AT WHAT SPECIFIC THRESHOLD WILL YOU USE THAT WORD? WHAT WILL YOU SAY WHEN BOSTON, NEW YORK, FLORIDA AMONG OTHER PLACES ARE UNDERWATER (AND THIS WILL HAPPEN IT IS NOT DISPUTABLE UNLESS THEY BUILD SOME DAMN GOOD LEVYS BUT AMERICANS ARENT VERY GOOD WITH LEVYS, AS KATRINA SHOWED)? WAS IT WORTH STOPPING ANOTHER SEPTEMBER 11?
RBOB WOULD LIKE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS SO THAT THEY CAN BE DISCUSSED.
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Post by mortalcry on Sept 26, 2006 15:19:26 GMT -8
My opinion: They are p*ssed at us because we've been invading their countries over there for years, why? because of republicans and their love for money(oil). THAT'S why they hit the trade towers because they wanted to show the american people of what their government is doing (incidently father and son Bush are Texans where oil is predominant). They don't blame the american people because they know that americans are mis- informed by media which can be manipulated by governmental concerns. Dubya, simply "covers" it with christianity issues, which sucks. I don't know if it's just what I heard about muslims, but if they dishonor their religion and are caught for what ever reason, they can be executed. And if they dishonor their country it's treason and a big religious "no, no". So based on that, I would say that they are completely loyal to their cause. They are simply defending their ways of life and there country, which is natural for them to do. I consider this particular war a crusade from the Bush administration. And as i have posted before, everyone should know that you CANNOT impose your religious views by force, it is only by the spoken word. For the opposed will look upon that force based on religion and detest both the man and the religion, my point, ever hear of muslim culture forcing issues of their faith and religion here? That is why this is a holy war. You know, i find it funny that no matter how many times a crusade is attempted to take the "holy land", it always fails.....
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Post by rbobatar on Sept 27, 2006 9:29:52 GMT -8
WELL THE MAIN REASON THERE ARE TERRORISTS IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE REAL OUTRAGES THEY ARE OUTRAGED ABOUT BUT IF WE JUST ABOLISHED RELIGION ALTOGETHER THE WORLD WOULD BGE A MUCH BETTER PLACE AND TERRORISM (NOTICE HOW ITS CALLED THE WAR ON TERROR AND NOT THE WAR ON FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM WHICH IT IS, AMERICA DID NOT CALL WORLD WAR TWO THE WAR ON WAR AFTER THE ATTACK ON PEARL HARBOUR) WOULD BE A NONFACTOR IN WORLD POLITICS AND THIS WHOLE STUPID DEBATE WOULDNT EVEN HAVE TO TAKE PLACE. BUT THANK YOU FOR YOUR USELESS POST MORTALCRY YOU RELIGIOUS IDIOT.
ANYWAY THERE IS NOT A SHADOW IN A DOUBT IN RBOBS MIND THAT IN TWENTY YEARS GEORGE BUSH WILL BE SEEN AS BY FAR THE WORST PRESIDENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY AND THE DISASTER THAT WAS HIS ADMINISTRATION FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD WILL LEAVE AN INDELIBLE MARK FOR DECADES TO COME.
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Post by mortalcry on Sept 27, 2006 13:04:29 GMT -8
No kidding?
NOTE: Anyone from the States have an opinion?
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Post by technohawk on Sept 27, 2006 14:04:45 GMT -8
No kidding? NOTE: Anyone from the States have an opinion? Discounting people's opinions based on their country of residence now? NOTE: You could always try acutally responding with a counter argument instead.
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Post by mortalcry on Sept 27, 2006 14:53:51 GMT -8
I am simply implying of what americans feel about all this since THEY are in the heart of it, that is not simple enough? All i've heard from is two liberals from Canada, who OBVIOUSLY don't stand for the same principles that i do, no matter. True, you get to watch your media and base your opinions, im not against that. But where are the liberals from the U.S.? I'm not here just for the "sake of the argument". I simply responded to RBOB in a matter that he responded to my opinion. I am looking for insight from opinions that are actually influenced by this country, unless of course you are experiencing terroristic threats which im not aware of.
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Post by rabidgecko on Sept 27, 2006 15:46:14 GMT -8
actually three liberals from canada, and i simply dont post arguements because everytime i pointed something out against you or someone else, i'd pretty much be ignored and techno who covers the same point i did gets the majority of the debate. not to mention that I pretty much agree with rbob and techno so i dont really need to repost what they say
so yea, 3 canadian liberals
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Post by rbobatar on Sept 27, 2006 17:28:55 GMT -8
OBVIOUSLY YOU DIDNT EVEN READ MY POST YOU IGNORANT FOOL MORTALCRY SINCE RBOB RENUMERATED THE STORY OF A CANADIAN TERROR CELL THAT WAS BROKEN UP EARLIER THIS SUMMER WHICH PLANNED ON DESTROYING THE CBC BUILDING, PARLIAMENT, PEACE TOWER AND BEHEADING THE PRIME MINISTER, HOWEVER FANTASTICAL THAT MIGHT SEEM. WE CAN SEE YOUR NEWS FOR OURSELVES AND CAN CONTRAST IT WITH OUR NEWS AND OTHER NEWS SOURCES SO WE ARE WELL AWARE OF HOW STUPID YOUR COUNTRY IS AS A RESULT. THE EVIDENCE OF AMERICAN STUPIDITY IS EVERYWHERE: TWO TERMS FOR GEORGE BUSH, REALITY TV, NANCY GRACE, SUVS, ADAM SANDLER. ONE IN FIVE AMERICAN EITHTEEN TO TWENTY FOUR YEAR OLDS COULD NOT LOCATE THE UNITED STATES ON AN OUTLINE MPA OF THE WORLD.
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Post by Chalupa! on Sept 27, 2006 18:07:31 GMT -8
WELL RBOB IS GLAD YOU ARE NOT SAYING THAT TORTURE HAS STOPPED ANY TERROR ATTACKS ALTHOUGH THAT APPEARED TO BE THE IMPLICATION BUT SINCE YOU ARE SAYING THAT RBOB IS CONFUSED WHY ANY SANE RATIONAL INDIVIDUAL WOULD STILL SUPPORT THE PRACTICE WHICH HAS HURT AMERICA IN SO MANY WAYS AND CONFERRED 0 BENEFITS AS YOU ADMIT. WHY DO YOU STILL SUPPORT TORTURE, AND IT IS TORTURE DESPITE THE BUSH ADMINISTRATIONS BEST EFFORTS TO REDEFINE IT INTO NONEXISTENCE? I'm not saying that it hasn't either. Does RBOB really believe that he would be told this information if or when it has happened? There are many secrets that RBOB is unaware of. (Oh geez, i'm talking like Rbob now) AS FOR THE PATRIOT ACT, THE EROSION OF HUMAN RIGHTS SEEMS TO BE NOT A CONCERN TO YOU... YOU IGNORED RBOBS COUNTEREXAMPLE OF THE CANADIAN TERROR CELL WHICH WAS INFILTRATED WITHIN DAYS OF ITS INCEPTION WITHOUT THE USE OF INVASIVE LAWS THAT ATTACK HUMAN RIGHTS, BASIC TO ALL AMERICANS AND MOST CIVILIZED COUNTRIES SINCE THE ANCIEN REGIME. THE MENTALITY IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE WHAT IS THERE TO BE AFRAID OF IS SO INCREDIBLY REMINISCENT OF A SPEECH GIVEN IN THE 1930S BY JOSEPH GOEBBELS TO ALLOW THE GESTAPO EXPANDED POWERS TO SEARCH HOMES AND IMPRISON ARBITRARILY IF THEY WERE DEEMED AN ENEMY OF THE STATE. IS THIS YOUR MENTALITY? Sort of. The US is not interested in phone calls to your mom, but phone calls to terrorist supporting countries and Chalupa has no problem with the US monitoring these phone calls. I'm willing to give up some of my freedoms (not all) to protect our Country. And the Canadian Terror Cell was in Canada for at least 6 years before they stopped them. PLUS, they tried to scare them into knowing they were being watched so they would leave. Very Lame. And why would they want to attack Canada? What did Canada do to piss them off? What Conservative in Canada pissed them off? Chalupa would like the answer to this. AS FOR THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN, CANADA COMPLETELY SAW THE MERITS IN IT AND HAS SENT A LARGE CONTINGENT AND SUFFERED THE DEATHS OF 32 SOLDIERS IN THE REGION (A CANADIAN SOLDIER IN AFGHANISTAN BEING SIX TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE IN THE LINE OF DUTY THAN AN AMERICAN SOLDIER IN IRAQ) BUT BECAUSE OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S NEGELECTION OF THAT WAR (TROOP LEVELS IN IRAQ COMPARED TO AFGHANISTAN ARE AT A RATIO OF 14:1), THE 10,000 AMERICANS AND OTHER ISAF FORCES ARE NOW BEING PUSHED OUT OF SOUTHERN AFGHANISTAN AND THE TALIBAN IS ON THE RESURGENT. AL QAEADA, THOUGH ALWAYS A SHADOW ORGANIZATION AND NEVER EVEN A FRACTION AS POWERFUL AS THE AUTHORITIES WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE IS RECOVERING AND IS NOT BEING HARRIED IN ANY OFFNEISVE PLANS THEY ARE MAKING. WHY DIDNT GEORGE BUSH PRIORITIZE AFGHANISTAN AND TRY AND CATCH OSAMA, THE ACTUAL TERRORIST YOU ARE SO AFRAID OF? Because Bush was smart and he listened to the advisers that were able to use the Northern Alliance (who were already against the Taliban) to carry out most of the dangerous work. For the most part, it worked very well, and there were occassions that it didn't. Overall, it was a success. RBOB IS GLAD YOU BROUGHT UP THIS POINT ABOUT TORTURE IN ALGERIA SINCE, FIRSTLY, THERE IS MASSIVE EVIDENCE THAT THE FRENCH USE OF TORTURE THAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE OBTAINED THEM INFORMATION BEFORE THE BATTLE AND THEIR CONDUCT IN SUCH MATTERS THROUGHOUT THE WAR ADDED FUEL TO THE POWER OF THE INSURGENCY AND GAVE IT A HUGE BOOST IN PUBLIC SUPPORT WHICH THEY WOULD OTHERWISE NOT HAVE HAD, A GIANT PROPAGANDA BOOST THAT ALSO HURT FANCE'S STANDING WORLDWIDE, ESPECIALLY IN THE EYES OF AMERICA IRONICALLY. SECONDLY FRANCE LOST THE WAR AFTER A LONG AND COSTLY INSURGENCY. AND THIS DOES NOT SOMEHOW DISPROVE THE STUDIES MENTIONED IN RECENT POSTS BY ACTUAL INTERROGATORS OF AL QAEDA SUSPECTS. DO YOU THINK THIS JUSTIFIES TORTURE? As English military theorist Brian Crozier put it, "By such ruthless methods, Massu smashed the FLN organization in Algiers and re-established unchallenged French authority. And he did the job in seven months -- from March to mid-October." Torture by the French did fail miserably in Vietnam, but you said it never worked, and I was proving you wrong. ALSO THE FACT THAT TORTURE WORKED ON JOHN MCCAIN SAYS MORE ABOUT JOHN MCCAIN THAN TORTURE ITSELF. I'll take this as RBOB's way of admitting he was wrong. ONCE AGAIN BUSH IS THE ONE AUTHORIZING TORTURE, SOMEBODY HAS TO SIGN THOSE BILLS AND IF GEORGE BUSH CANNOT HOLD ALL THE BLAME DONALD RUMSFELD CERTAINLY CAN AND TO DO SO IS SOMEWHAT LIKE SAYING HITLER WAS NOT TO BLAME FOR THE HOLOCAUST SINCE HE DID NOT ORDER IT, IT WAS ALL HIMMLER'S IDEA (THIS IS TRUE HITLER NEVER EVEN PUT HIS NAME ON ANY PAPER PERTAINING TO THE FINAL SOLUTION) DO YOU THINK GEORGE BUSH SHOULD BE ABSOLVED OF BLAME IN THE SAME FASHION? Prove this (Bush authorized torture). You can't. Thank You. You Lose. AND RBOB WAS AWESTRUCK BY THE APPARENT NAIVETY OF YOUR STATEMENT THAT THE TERRORISTS DONT NEED A REASON TO BE PISSED. WHY THE f**k DO YOU THINK THEY HATE AMERICA? IT IS CERTAINLY NOT JEALOUSY. IT IS CERTAINLY NOT THEY HAVE HEARTS OF PURE EVIL. AS ATTICUS FINCH ONCE SAID YOU DO NOT KNOW A MAN UNTIL YOU WALK A MILE IN HIS SHOES AND OBVIOUSLY YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THEIR SITUATION IS EXTREMELY POOR. THESE MEN AND WOMEN ARE NOT MOTIVATED TO KILL THEMSELVES TO HAVE THE GLORY OF KILLING AMERICAN CIVILIANS JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE JEALOUS OF AMERICAN POWER. AMERICAN OUTRAGES IN THE REGIONS ARE NUMBERLESS. RBOB DOESNT HAVE THE TIME TO RENUMERATE THEM NOW BUT IF YOU ARE INTERESTED HE CAN GET INTO THAT LATER. TERRORISTS DONT SIMPLY WAKE UP ONE DAY AND DECIDE THEY HATE AMERICA AND THEY WILL BLOW THEMSELVES UP IN THE NAME OF ISLAM WHICH AMERICA OSTENSIBLY DOES NOT HATE. RBOB WILL SIMPLY ASK THE QUESTION WHY DO YOU THINK THEY HATE AMERICA? /quote] And why did they attempt to attack the almighty Canada then? A Liberal Country couldn't have possibly done anything wrong! AND THE LIBERALS WERE IN FACT THE ONES ON TV CLAIMING THAT AMERICA WOULD HAVE NOT HUNDREDS BUT THOUSANDS OF TERRORISTS RISE UP AND ATTACK, RBOB DOES NOT DISAGREE WITH YOU AT ALL ON THIS. RBOB WONDERS WHAT YUO CALL THE INSURGENCY. TERRORISTS WHO WOULD HAVE NEVER MADE IT OVER TO THE US BUT NOW THEY CAN KILL AMERICAN SOLDIERS RIGHT AT HOME IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN. RBOB WONDERS WHERE THE LIBERALS WERE WRONG SINCE THE TIME TAKEN TO PLAN SEPTEMBER 11 WAS TEN YEARS, AND IT HAS ONLY BEEN THREE SINCE THE INVASION YOU ARE BEING A BIT PREMATURE IN CITING NO ATTACKS ON THE US AS THE SUCCESS OF US FOREIGN POLICY BUT WONDERS HOW YOU WOULD SPIN IT IF THERE WAS ANOTHER ATTACK. PROBABLY DEMOCRATS OPPOSING PATRIOT ACT 2 RBOB PRESUMES. GEORGE BUSH IS DAMNED LUCKY THERE HAVE BEEN NO MORE TERROR ATTACKS SINCE HIS COLOSSAL INCOMPETENCE WAS SHOWN FOR EVERYONE TO SEE FOLLOWING THE KATRINA DISASTER, A THREAT OF THE SAME NATURE (BASICALLY) AND MUCH MORE FORESEEABLE THAN ANY TERROR ATTACK. HOWEVER AS FOR IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN RBOB WONDERS WHAT THE LIVES OF HOW MANY AMERICAN SOLDIERS ARE WORTH TO YOU? HOW MANY IRAQI CIVILIANS MUST DIE TO STOP ANOTHER TERROR ATTACK ON US SOIL (100,000 IS NOT AN INACCURATE ESTIMATE AND THAT WAS A YEAR AGO WE CAN DEBATE THAT TOO)? HOW MANY TRILLIONS (YES TRILLIONS) SPENT ON FIGHTING TERROR ARE WORTH THE LIVES LOST IN A WORST CASE TERROR SCENARIO (3,000 DYING ON SEPTEMBER 11 NEVER LIKELY TO BE SURPASSED)? RBOB WOULD LIKE AN ANSWER. Nice attempt to change the facts. They claimed we would see more 9/11 type attacks on US soil. They swore we would be sorry and terrorists would be coming out of the wood work blowing up the US. Typical Liberal to twist the claim now to fighting in Iraq. Nice Try. AS FOR RBOBS OTHER POINT ON THE DESTRUCTION OF THE EARTH AS A HABITABLE PLACE, RBOB HAS TO GO TO CLASS BUT HE JUST WOULD LIKE TO POSE THE QUETSION WHAT WOULD IT TAKE FOR YOU TO CALL WHAT THE EARTH IS GOING THROUGH THE APOCALYPSE? THE DEATH OF THE SALMON? GLOBAL WARMING? THE OZONE HOLE? THE REDUCTION OF KRILL PROPULATIONS OFF ANTARCTICA BY 90%? THE TURNING OF THE SEA OFF SAN DIEGO AND THE GULF OF MEXICO INTO A DEAD ZONE? THE EXTINCTION OF TWO HUNDRED SPECIES PER DAY? FOUR HUNDRED? SIX HUNDRED? THE BREATHTAKING DECLINE OF EVERY SINGLE LIFE AND LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEM ON EARTH IN LES THAN A CENTURY? AT WHAT SPECIFIC THRESHOLD WILL YOU USE THAT WORD? WHAT WILL YOU SAY WHEN BOSTON, NEW YORK, FLORIDA AMONG OTHER PLACES ARE UNDERWATER (AND THIS WILL HAPPEN IT IS NOT DISPUTABLE UNLESS THEY BUILD SOME DAMN GOOD LEVYS BUT AMERICANS ARENT VERY GOOD WITH LEVYS, AS KATRINA SHOWED)? WAS IT WORTH STOPPING ANOTHER SEPTEMBER 11? RBOB WOULD LIKE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS SO THAT THEY CAN BE DISCUSSED. Now you want to move on to Global Warming?
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Post by rabidgecko on Sept 27, 2006 19:07:09 GMT -8
well the one biggest factor in that may be that our troops are in afghanistan making sure that the taliban cannot get a foothold in that country again. there may be others since we are one of america's allies, but im not sure what else since I do not think like a terrorist. but afghanistan definitely pissed them off. and it was the liberals who decided to send our troops to afghanistan, which I believe we did before the war in iraq started.
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