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Post by irishillini81 on Apr 30, 2006 18:22:35 GMT -8
I am the only person you should worship. bow down bitches
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Post by raen7 on Apr 30, 2006 18:50:35 GMT -8
There are 3 views in this thread 1) Christian -- believe in hell and angry hateful or vengeful God that likes hurting others if they hurt anyone else etc.... 2) Atheist -- Don't believe in God and therefore probably don't believe in Hell either 3) Me =) which is probably classified as a mixture of buddist/hindu/christian/new age all wrapped into one. On a side note, I hope none of this sounds too condesending. That was the main point of raen7's post that pissed me off. I don't condescend; I point out logical faults. Anyone who finds logical faults in my posts is welcome to point them out just as blatantly. Your generalization of the Christian viewpoint shows me that you obviously didn't read through my post. Or if you did, you ignored it. Other things: Phoenix, you pretty much repeated what I said only in simpler terms. Gnome, thanks for pointing that punchline out; I obviously didn't read long enough to see that.
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Post by technohawk on May 1, 2006 2:34:06 GMT -8
I did in fact read your post, and re read it several times and just now read it again.
>>Holy freakin God....... I think you are confused.....
Yep doesn't sound condescending in the least bit. Plus i find it funny and ironic of someone who takes the bible at near face value talking about logical faults. Heck just believing in God can be considered illogical.
Later on ill go point by point through your post, right now I'm too tired to bother with that.
I will yet again restate my belief in yet another way of thinking instead.
I'll use an example from a mentor of mine's writings.
If you have an apple pie and take a slice of it and could ask it questions, what would it say if you asked it "What are you like?"
The only response it could give would be, "Well i guess I'm like what I came from" The slice can only be like what it came from.
The "Soul" can only be what it came from, which is God. Yet again I say, God = Love. Soul=Love, Taco chips= tasty.
Maybe you love with judgment so you think God does too. I certainly know that I have previously done the whole "Well I won't like that person if they don't like me or I won't forgive unless they forgive."
I believe that the story of Satan is nothing more than a Myth that has been used as a form of control by various groups. You are never going to find true peace inside yourself or outside in the world if you still believe that some powerful evil being is out there to f**k you up for no purpose(or even FOR a purpose).
To me the fallen angel story gives the impression that you could be screwed no matter what. I mean the most powerful being in the universe creates the 2nd most powerful being and number 2 goes apeshit.
If the 2nd best of all time can go bad and never come back, why should we think we have even the slightest chance of going to heaven. We're ants compared to "Lucifer" in the blessed side of things according to the bible.
But rallying and shouting peace chants doesn't appeal as much as rallying to eradicate the evil that is Satan.
Plus it has the end all of any argument. "That man is spouting the words of Satan, burn him now."
Whereas my view looks at others and says "Oh you are on your way to finding God, so am I, I'm just taking a different path."
I just prefer my path because I can be both happy now and after death, instead of being a slave to the fear of darkness now and possibly later.
And yes, people do change their minds and their ways, I stated that before in a previous post about myself. On this topic I will not regress into my old Christian beliefs that had me worrying about demonic attacks and had me get angry at those who broke any "Christian laws."
That's enough for now. This discussion is getting tired since most of those who post believe in the literal translation of the bible and will probably burn books like the Da Vinci code for blasphemy.
Yes I'm being snide now, and I'll probably go apeshit if this continues, which is not something i care do to, since i keep trying to be better than that.
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Post by navyceals on May 1, 2006 2:40:56 GMT -8
1) Christian -- believe in hell and angry hateful or vengeful God that likes hurting others if they hurt anyone else etc.... If you can imagine a God that is mean enough to destroy and torture people just for shits and giggles, that's fine. For the most part I dislike christianity but not christians. I'm all for believing that Christ is the miracle worker that the bible says he is. Other than that I really don't have a lot of "faith" in the bible written by MAN and for the new testament 200-300 years after the fact. And like before if you believe God created the Devil and thus evil then we're all screwed. =) Ok well I had spent like 40 minutes on a response, then my webpage froze and I lost it, so this will be a quick recap. As has been mentioned, God is a judge. The consequences have been set out for sin, a provision has been made to avoid those consequences, and if it is not taken, obviously the punishment must be upheld. God did create the Devil, how are we all screwed? He also created us.. The Devil is real. The Devil does tempt people, but you make the final decision whether to sin or not. The New Testament was not written 200-300 years after the fact!!! I believe that the latest book was written around 40 years after the death of Jesus. All of the New Testament books were written by people who had lived when Jesus was alive (none of them lived 200-300 years). The only reason I can see you picking this date, is that was around the period when the books which make up the New Testament were divinely chosen. But again, the books were all written way sooner than you've stated, which is a reason why they can be seen as being accurate. Please look into that. This topic has covered a lot of area surrounding the question, but the actual question is really what it all hinges on: is Jesus Christ the Son of God? A good book to see is "Lunatic, Liar, or Lord." Basically those are the only 3 options (post if you believe otherwise). Either Jesus was a lunatic, for saying he was the Son of God, and believing it when he really wasn't; making him insane. Or he was a liar and tricked everyone into thinking he was the Son of God, when in fact he knew that he was a fraud. Or he was what he said he was, the Son of God. Of the 3, Liar does make the most "sense." But it's not like Jesus was asking for money or anything (unlike some groups, such as the Catholic Church). And in view of what he had to lose, his life, and the fact that by lying he would be going against everything he'd taught, it doesn't seem that likely. The reason why he was crucified was because he claimed to be the Son of God (blasphemy). Worth looking into. NavY_Ceals
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Post by raen7 on May 1, 2006 11:10:32 GMT -8
Who said I took the Bible at face value? The vast majority of my post was argument-by-definition. To quote myself... Also note, this is purely philosophical. The only part of this argument that comes from the Bible is the proposition that God created everything. Even when I say "Christ", I don't necessarily have to be referring to Jesus the man; granted, most of you will take it that way, but it's not essential to link Jesus the man with Christ the manifestation of God. Maybe I came off as a bit condescending at first, because I was just surprised at some of the naivete I found in your posts. Now that you have proven yourself to be a more reasonable debater, I will treat you with the deserved respect. That does not, however, mean that I will agree with you. No, we enjoy a good FICTION novel just as much as you do. That's what Navy is pointing out; you took your "scriptures written 200-300 years after the fact" numbers from Dan Brown's mouth, not from any hard evidence. Lastly, Before you make such a sweeping statement, please take a philosophy class. I should clarify something: I've used the words "philosophy" and "philosophical" many times but I am by no means a philosophy major. I'm a computer engineer. This requires me to be very, very logical, but also very, very realistic. Above all, I am a realist. Questions such as "what is Truth?", "what is absolute?", and other such philosophical discourses are relatively useless to me. I don't require something to be proved "absolutely"; I only require "sufficient evidence". And is there sufficient evidence for God's existence? In my view, yes.
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Post by technohawk on May 1, 2006 13:20:59 GMT -8
All righty then. I'm all rested and ready to rumble again. I'll continue the discussion if just for the fleeting opportunity to at least show people an alternate view of the world that took so long to come to me. I still detect a hint of anger from you Raen7. I will do my best to leave that on you and not on the whole of Christianity.
So, infinitely perfect being creates lousy copies of himself. Would that be akin to a perfect computer language(Oh I know I'm stretching it now) creating inferior programs.
Didn't God create us in his own image? Did he use a shitty xerox and not all the lines came out? Why can't we be God ourselves or more likely "Parts" of God created so that we/He could better understand ourselves.
Oh yes we must.
So he gave us free will and the ability to choose. But only one choice was the right choice. Thus akin to(I like saying akin to)
Ok Bob I'm going to give you two choices because I feel you should have a say in the process. Choose option A and you get a new car, or choose option B and I kill your mother. (Oh i love being melodramatic too)
Plus the whole Jesus dying for our sins means God had at first intended for us all to go to Hell but then said, oh shit, ill be lonely, so let's make a legal loophole and get some people up here.
To me I see it as Jesus was extremely enlightened about God/Love/The Universe etc. People didn't understand that, and it would force people to have to change their views. Many see change as bad, thus the Crucifixion of Jesus was inevitable.
So let's say someone kills someone I love and never asks for forgiveness EVER. I on the other hand, after grieving, come to the realization that to not forgive this person puts a strain on me because I am more focused on the past instead of the present. So i choose to forgive that person and show them love even if they don't show anyone else love ever.
Woohoo, according to your viewpoint, I just forgave someone and showed them more love than mighty God could do. How can that be?
Ouch, that's harsh and an unfair generalization, but expected. First off, I learned this from a CHRISTIAN RELIGION CLASS!!!! about 10 years ago. What do ya know, the teacher was wrong and believed in something just because everyone before him told him that it was true.
Upon further study I have seen that the books are more likely to have occurred 40-70 years after JC's death.
Furthermore It's insulting to lump me into the mindless people who can't think for themselves and believe in whatever the last book they read tells them. This is usually the argument non-christians have about Christians, that they can't think for themselves. I am not of that opinion. You can actually think for yourselves.
Ouch again. Before posting take a sensitivity class. It's ok tho, I can take it.
I've not taken a philosophy class, oh touche. Instead I read books on the subject instead.
Since it does seem that I must continually restate myself. I DO believe in God. But I don't have any physical proof. All I have is evidence that something bigger is working for the betterment of the world. Thus belief without proof should make me illogical which I think it does.
One thing I will say here is that I see far more "proof" of "Good/Loving God" than vengeful God.
I still haven't seen any proof of Hell. I've seen mean people and good people and mean people getting forgiven by good people.
I'll throw in one more opinion on the whole forgiveness/Judgement topic here. Let's have the big guy himself set it up for me.
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV)
I don't remember the passage after where he says
"Then leave the beatch to me because when he dies and doesn't ask for forgiveness i will PWN HIS ASS!!!"
But of course be wary of me, very wary, because even Satan himself can use the scriptures for his own purpose. MUHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
Sorry, had to get that last part out of me, even though it may lessen the strength of the argument.
Finally. I already posted the Is Jesus... answer on the first page and I think people should read the ENTIRE thread from start to finish.
EDIT "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord." (Romans 12:19, NIV)
Guess He does want to PWN him after all.
I add this only to help other's from having to search for this and post it in response to my stuff as "proof" that my argument sucks.
It doesn't lessen my own argument, but helps me understand the christian notion of revenge(and yes its not just christians, its just about everyone except those who follow a path of peace and love, which is what im trying to do, but so far I still get the bloodlust every now and then)
I will say again to Raen7: Leave out the condensention, the snippy insults and the general attitude of anger towards someone who holds a different view. Otherwise I shall do the same and then this whole thing will turn into a big ol SMackdown episode.
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Post by grayfox7 on May 1, 2006 14:50:58 GMT -8
So, infinitely perfect being creates lousy copies of himself. Would that be akin to a perfect computer language(Oh I know I'm stretching it now) creating inferior programs. Didn't God create us in his own image? Did he use a shitty xerox and not all the lines came out? Why can't we be God ourselves or more likely "Parts" of God created so that we/He could better understand ourselves. You just answered this one yourself. God created humans in his own image; he didn't create more gods. Ouch, that's harsh and an unfair generalization, but expected. First off, I learned this from a CHRISTIAN RELIGION CLASS!!!! about 10 years ago. What do ya know, the teacher was wrong and believed in something just because everyone before him told him that it was true. Upon further study I have seen that the books are more likely to have occurred 40-70 years after JC's death. Sources?
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Post by technohawk on May 1, 2006 15:07:46 GMT -8
I took the easy way out for sources, wikipedia.
and yes i answered that one myself because thats what I already believed. If I didn't make that clear in the previous post, my appologies.
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Post by grayfox7 on May 1, 2006 15:23:59 GMT -8
I took the easy way out for sources, wikipedia. Which page on wikipedia? Link, please.
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Post by Chalupa! on May 1, 2006 19:17:34 GMT -8
If you can imagine a God that is mean enough to destroy and torture people just for shits and giggles, that's fine. I'm not trying to convert, just to show people there is another view of God besides the Fear Filled Dogma that has become christianity(and yes its a generalization and some of u might be in a faith that isn't full of fear mongering) For the most part I dislike christianity but not christians. I'm all for believing that Christ is the miracle worker that the bible says he is. Other than that I really don't have a lot of "faith" in the bible written by MAN and for the new testament 200-300 years after the fact. There were books written right after Jesus' death and resurection but the Roman Emperor who commisioned the creation of the bible conveniently left those ones out. I guess my main point is I don't see how people can or would want to worship someone who tortures kills and doesn't seem to show all that much love in doing it. I prefer to believe in a loving God/Universe/Spirit/ Maybe i'm wrong, but it really seems like you are creating the religion that you like best. There are things about God that you agree with, so those you believe. On the other hand, you think God should not punish people that he loves so you choose not to believe that part. You also make it sound like God get's his kicks from hurting people. Does a mother enjoy punishing her children (okay, some might but generally no)? She still does it because there is a reason for it. God has reasons for punishing people but never said he enjoyed it. I just can't understand how someone could "create" their own religion because it's the way they want it. There may be things you don't like, but last time I checked, unless you are God, you don't get to make up your own cult. (Yes, making up your own religion is a cult which is what you are doing) Chalupa
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Post by technohawk on May 1, 2006 20:17:05 GMT -8
ok WIki link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Date_of_compositionAs to your post Chalupa, I do not intend to nor have I already created any new religion. I do not follow organized religion anymore, i feel that in most cases it's too restricting. And for the love of fluffy kittens im not forming a cult. First off let me yet again restate stuff that you guys have so far misinterpreted. I see YOU(ie christians) as worshipping a God who gets his kicks from hurting people who don't follow his one and ONLY ONE way to salvation, which of course differs between every christian denomonation. I BELIEVE in a God who gets his kicks from loving us and helping us become better people. My goal in life is to become a better person by practicing forgiveness, love, kindness, compassion etc... In my 20+ years of going to christian church I was taught some of that and yet at the same time taught that God's gonna torture and judge people at the "End Times" Anyways I expected many people not to "get" the whole point of being compassionate and instead acting like a kid who just got beat up but won't fight back because he's waiting for his bigger brother to come and kick some ass. (For those who can't understand that, YOU are the kid, God is the brother who will kick ass in the afterlife) If the concept of true UNconditional forgiveness and love is foreign to you, which I am assuming IT is, then God help you. So anyways, if you have more insults to throw at me, send them to chunkylover53@aol.com (hehe you should know by now where this comes from) If you have actual comments to make, leave them here.
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PhoenixFlare500
Diamond Membership
I like chocolate[ss:LostPeon's Gray][ss:LostPeon's Gray]
Posts: 896
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Post by PhoenixFlare500 on May 2, 2006 13:13:58 GMT -8
Okay.... I have to start reading this thread more frequently, 'cause there's always a lot more posts than the last time that I've read this. I also have to admit, this does seem to have turned into an everybody vs TechnoHawk thing now, which really is not what I wanted to create when started this thread. I'm sorry to have done that, and like TechnoHawk said, it would be better to leave insults, or any comments that come from malice, out of this thread. Those just take away from the actual topic. Anyways, here goes my bit. And TechnoHawk, I'm not trying to attack you if it comes across that way, it's just that you're basically the only atheist posting something that matters right now. "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV) EDIT "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord." (Romans 12:19, NIV) Guess He does want to PWN him after all. I have to say I'm a bit confused on what you are trying to say here. Previously you posted that you can't believe in a God who enjoys torturing people, yet here you seem to have stated that he does. Did you change your mind about it? I also have to say, you have a very different perception about Christianity in general than I seem to. I keep going back to this: There are 3 views in this thread 1) Christian -- believe in hell and angry hateful or vengeful God that likes hurting others if they hurt anyone else etc.... This is not what I see Christianity as, and definitely not what I see God as. Now as the verse above stated, God says, "It is mine to avenge." This means that God is vengeful, and can be very angry. However, it does not make him hateful. Let's use the example of the judge again, since that is what God is, the Supreme Judge. A judge is bound to the law, and so when it is proven that someone has committed a crime, the judge must sentence them, whether they like it or not. It does not mean the judge hates the offender and wishes them pain or whatever, he is just doing his duty, and it is his responsibility to act based on the evidence.(BTW if anybody disagrees with this then I recommend you not become a judge) In the same way, God does not enjoy hurting people, but there still have to be consequences to their actions. I see YOU(ie christians) as worshipping a God who gets his kicks from hurting people who don't follow his one and ONLY ONE way to salvation, which of course differs between every christian denomonation. I can assure you, I would not worship a God who enjoys hurting people. I believe that good things come from God and bad things come from Satan. Now I do believe that if you sin against God, you do deserve and will get bad things, that being God's wrath. But I don't believe he enjoys it.
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Post by grayfox7 on May 2, 2006 15:04:48 GMT -8
And TechnoHawk, I'm not trying to attack you if it comes across that way, it's just that you're basically the only atheist posting something that matters right now. He's not an atheist. He believes in a god. He's said that several times now. I have to say I'm a bit confused on what you are trying to say here. Previously you posted that you can't believe in a God who enjoys torturing people, yet here you seem to have stated that he does. Did you change your mind about it? No. He said earlier that he disagreed with the idea of a "God as some hard-ass enforcer of unfair rules that would lead to judgement and sentencing of people to eternal hellfire" (which is an erroneous idea). The first quote was to back up that notion and the second quote was to show that he did find a quote that supports a viewpoint different than what he believes in. Basically it's there so nobody pulls it out and completely embarrasses him, to show that he's aware there are such quotes in the Bible. If you read right under what you quoted, he explains this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Technohawk, if there is a God, I doubt he would judge people by saying "Oh you did 350 good things but you did 351 bad things, so go to hell" or "You did many good things but at the last second before you died you said shit, you go to hell", as you used as examples for judgment in a previous post. The second example here is completely trivial and ridiculous; nobody would be sent to hell for swearing. And in the first example, I'm sure WHAT the bad deeds were would count for more than how many of them one committed. For example, a petty thief would be punished less severely than a murderer, etc. There is also no evidence that God is a "hard-ass enforcer of unfair rules" (well, I see how someone could argue that God is a hard-ass based on his treatment of Job, but that's a different debate). And unfair? Nobody even knows what God's judgments would exactly be based on besides that they would have something to do with one's sins and good deeds committed on Earth. By calling them unfair rules, you're making an unjust assumption about something which neither you - nor anyone - knows anything about.
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Post by technohawk on May 2, 2006 16:09:38 GMT -8
Well regardless, as phoneix said it has become a Me vs Christians. THus in regards to THIS topic it shall be my last post(hopefully). First off as Leon "the grayfox" Trotsky pointed out, I AM NOT an atheist. I've pretty much stated in every post that I believe in a LOVING GOD. Plus the "ass kicking GOd" view is how i see other christians as seeing God, it is NOT my own view. It seems clear that many people are not actually reading and interpreting what I say, thus your analogies are totally off. That in itself is one of my peeves about christianity, it ignores stuff or misinterprets things. And while I'd just LOVE to do the research required to prove that, Im not going to. This is not out of laziness or a belief that there is no proof, merely an acceptance that regardless of the proof, you likely would ignore it or misinterpret it. As to this being the last post it is also not me "chickening out." I've proven myself in verbal combat, i need not continue what has become a war of attrition against myself. A question was asked in this thread. I gave you an answer that had the posibility to at least open your minds to different beliefs other than christianity or atheism. You chose to attact it instead of asking questions to further understand it, that is your loss. So far the only posts that have at least been objective and enjoyable have been the posts from the atheists. I myself was at one point and atheist. Then I became a christian taught to be fearful of God. Now I'm a beliver in God but not a believer in organized religion. As for the God as the supreme Judge i still don't think so. Loving benevolent parent, sure, not a judge. By this statement phoenix a judge must do "what is just" regardless of his feelings. So if God is a judge and is sentencing someone he is following a set of rules BEYOND himself? Because how could God sentence someone even if he doesn't like to do it? Wouldn't he have created the law himself, or is there someone higher up the chain that created the laws? Your argument lacks merit on those principles. However, this discussion was NEVER supposed to be about "principles." Merely ideas. My whole basis(which, holy shit I have to state again since after 10 posts you still can't interpret) on WHY HELL does NOT exist is that IF God is loving (and my definition of LOVE is that you love someone or something WITHOUT any conditions. ie Someone does something bad, you love them and you forgive them even if they themselves are not repentant. You love someone even if they are on a path that is completely contrary to your path.) then not just WHY but HOW could he create Hell to punish people. Threats of going to hell if you are bad is cohercion, plain and simple. It would negate Free will. In addition, final judgement is a statement that People Can Never Change. If you believe in that then you believe in a God that gives up on people after a set amount of time(ie their lifetime). If God gives everyone a chance to redeem themselves on earth, wouldn't he also give people a chance to redeem themselves AFTER THEY DIE? Now I DO believe that we as humanity are here because at somepoint WE separated from God. We didn't need some mythical horned beast to do it for us. WE separated from God and now it's our path/journey to reconnect. The only way to do that is to act more like the true nature of God, which as I stated before IS LOVE. So let me be clear as to what I belive. I'll use simple words so you can finally understand. ME Believe: God exists God Loves UNCONDITIONALLY GOd Forgives us no matter what we do or what we don't do Organized religion -> Strayed away from the true path of love and salvation a long long long time ago. Christians(only evidencing what I've seen in my life and what posters here have said) --> Misinterpret or completely ignore doctrine that is contrary to their beliefs. Have far more anger issues than they care to admit. Like killing people in order to save them(Anyone up for another Crusade?) Of course since they believe in Hell, christians who killed unbelievers would in their own minds not have saved anyone but sent them to Hell. Believe that there is a Hell and that bad people will suffer for eternity unless they repent at least 0.000001 seconds before death. (Now for you people who can't seem to understand the difference between what i see you as thinking and what I think, this is my opinion of christians. IT IS NOT what I think) Good Night. God Bless. And read the whole post three times before responding so that you actually appear to sound like you KNOW what i just said instead of sounding like an idiot. I mean phoenix thought I was an atheist, Chalupa thought I was starting a religion/cult and Raen7 thinks I'm a misguided lunatic. You may be good at trivia, but you suck at reading and interpreting what I've had to say. You'll probably misinterpret this message too. I hope you don't, but you haven't shown any evidence so far that would lead me to believe that. Ironically the people who have acted the kindest and most unbiased have been the Atheists. Good on ya atheists! I'll say this one last time since no one read it any other time. I am fine with people believing in other religions or no religion etc. Yet if you keep a closed mind to other posibilities you will not grow and you will not learn. So open up your mind, just not so much that your brain falls out.
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Post by defectivegnome on May 2, 2006 16:33:24 GMT -8
Hasn't this entire thread been about pretending we know what God is/wants/does? Why should we stop now? At least one person liked my Jesus pictures!
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